Isn't that when the next Ubuntu comes out - HAHAHAHHA

Perhaps Microsoft would be better off considering the problem that users don't necessarily want to change systems every couple of years just to keep Microsoft's shareholders happily rich, but would prefer instead for Microsoft to concentrate on getting what they already have working the way people want it to.

Yes, there are those out there that will buy whatever Microsoft pump out, on the day, whatever the price, but they are but a part of the entire user base, and even they are getting a bit browned off by the problems, both real and perceived (and possibly imagined, but that's Microsoft's own fault for releasing code that is unfit for use every single time they put a new version out... Windows 3.0 anyone? Windows 95? Windows 98 FE? Pre-SP1 Windows XP?).

There's a reason why so many cling to XP, W2K and W98SE. When a user finally has a system that works, what is the point of changing it?

I think MS needs to do an Apple. v7 needs to be Vista, but fixed, in the same way Snow Leopard will be Leopard, but improved.

Go back to basics, throw out stuff that doesn't work and simplify.

Then strip it down to two versions - home and business - and sell it cheap.

oh goody another pointless M$ os!

i'm stickin' with XP for the forseeable future..even then i strip it right back to look like w2k anyway!

is SP3 ok now, can we apply that?

cheers,

bill

stuff and nonsense: http://www.eupeople.net/forum

Presumably one can apply the old joke where Bill Gates stands before God and is shown a video clip of Heaven where there are serene people mostly doing nothing and another clip of Hell where there is seemingly a party going on, full of booze, good music and beautiful people having a good time. When asked whether he prefers to go to Heaven or Hell for eternity, he picks Hell, only to find it is full of nasty, horrible things. He unhappily complains to God and asks where the party and beautiful people are, only to be told that the clip was merely a demo.

oh, good one! :)

[quote]

“Our intent with Windows 7 and the pre-release communication is to make sure that we have a reasonable degree of confidence in what we talk about when we do talk.”

[/quote]

Does this constitute an admission that previous efforts have been marked by failure to engage brain before placing mouth into gear?

As Prof Sumner-Miller was wont to say "Who'd-a-thunk it?"

Could be time to change the BillyG pic for a chair in mid-air.

Microsoft would be smart if they would stop mentioning or using the word Vista in anything they say. Admitting that Windows 7 uses the same kernel as Vista is not a good way to start. Bottom line is many people want a leaner coded OS without the deep embedded DRM. Allot of businesses are waiting for windows 7. They will be disappointed to see its more of the same under a different disguise.

“Our intent with Windows 7 and the pre-release communication is to make sure that we have a reasonable degree of confidence in what we talk about when we do talk.”

e.g. "My daughter can run Vista without anti-virus software"

XP Media Center 2005 is great. Vista Ultimate is horrible.

I'll reserve judgement, but Microsoft is clearly PWNED by the media companies.

You know, the ones who are too ignorant to start their own iTunes? The ones who know how to destroy services, not create them?

Windows 7 - living proof that you actually CAN polish a turd!

That's "living" as in the good Doctor Frankenstein standing over something tied to the bed, drenched in blood & waving his hands in the air shouting "IT'S ALIVE...!" - in just the same way I presume that Windows 7 will come alive as soon as the hurricane season ramps up the power of the lightning bolts...

Paris - because she is usually the one tied to the bed & it has probably been far too long since someone last electrocuted her...

You should know that after Windows Seven, we will finally have Windows Hate ;-)

Because we all know that windows is unsinkable. Don't we?

Seriously, they'd do better by promoting something that works and is trustworthy, like XP. Rather than something that is rustworthy, like vista.

I'm surprised ths guy still has a job after being personally responsible for the 'Windows Capable' debacle, when he made critical decisions without involving his boss Jim Alachin who subsequently lost his job as a result.

"We, as a team, definitely learned some lessons about “disclosure” and how we can all too easily get ahead of ourselves in talking about features before our understanding of them is solid. Our intent with Windows 7 and the pre-release communication is to make sure that we have a reasonable degree of confidence in what we talk about when we do talk." ..... http://blogs.msdn.com/e7/

Always a Good Plan otherwise it's just a Spout of Nonsensical GBIrish rather than a Font of NeuReal Wisdom. The Best Plan though is always to have the Source doing the Talking, especially if something is a still a bit Purple Hazey/Cloudy.

"We know the ins and outs of blogging and expect to have fun, provide great information, and also make a few mistakes." .... I bet you say that to all the boys and girls, E7.:-)

I wonder if they know that Blogging can Render every Hidden Secret, right to an Operating System's Core, which is maybe probably definitely why we have this Mutual Initiative. Bravo, Engineering Windows 7. I'll show you mine and you can show me yours .. and may the best Algorithm Win Win is a SMART Novelty.

Oh dear..... Does that mean that Partner/Competition Purchase ...Ye olde Windows E3 [Embrace, Extend and Extinguish] is no longer a Fast Track Option to Instant Obscene Obscured Wealth? How very disappointing :-).... Ah well, I suppose that just Opens up the Field Nicely to the Competition.

_Anyone_ can run Vista without anti-virus software.

Just not for long.

"Perhaps Microsoft would be better off considering the problem that users don't necessarily want to change systems every couple of years"

Could be worse, ubuntu seems to have a release every time I fart. At least MS support older versions for 10 yrs or so, unlike like most linux distros I could mention.

Paris, 'cos she enjoys a good release.

I can't remember that happening since Cutler last talked about NT, which was what, 15 years ago?

Make it run without needing a Cray

I'm not part of their "army" of customers who "care deeply about windows" anymore, in fact I couldn't give a monkey's, as I've been using Ubuntu at home for over a year and I'm quite happy with it. Good riddance to Microsoft! Even when I come to buy a new PC it's good to know you can get them without Windows on now.

A newer OS should, aside from anything else, perform the same job as its predecessor on the same hardware, better and/or quicker.

When you've got that nailed, by all means go about adding optional silly UIs and card games that need graphics acceleration...

It won't need *a* Cray - it'll need at least 3

so this is an announcement about an announcement

if microsoft do everything right and get windows 7 perfect as it can be better than vista and better than xp then im upgraing to it. untill that time unless i see some results microsoft im sorry guys but im sticking to xp for a few more years if i see good reviews on windows then i might get it but if i get more bad revierws then im sorry i dont mind buying microsoft stuff but not if its going to be like vista am memory hog and application compatibility issues

e.g. "My daughter can run Vista without anti-virus software"

...why, wouldn't that be another operating system that works. To be honest MS are a victim of their own success, if they dont produce then it becomes old and their market share begins to fall, hence the rise of Linux and Apple (though, to be honest I think Steve Jobs would sell his soul to be in Bill Gates position really).

Is the future in the OS W7 or Leopard where we have to buy all new kit as the stuff here and now is "below"* minimum spec?

Personally I would like to see the cloud computing become more than what it is and connect to my pc anywhere in the world, I would never have to update it and worry about the antivirus or trojans masses that are released with regularity (funny that, isnt it, how rather than fix the problem microsoft left it open to exploit by other companies and themselves).

Yes I know your thinking PC Anywhere/Citrix or what about my p0rn, I dont want to have it somewhere where I can possibly get caught or how much storage can I have...

How about I pay £50 and I have a license and I never have to worry about buying the most expensive pc or waste time fixing the damn thing.

Do I need the latest pc and version of whatever OS to look at a document or spreadsheet... Do I need to play games on the pc when the Xbox/Wii is more fun anyway, cant I just get terabyte storage for everything I have and look at it with any device I want to at home or on a light powerful laptop that I dont have to worry about it going out of date in 2 months have a my.

Its hardly like the technology doesnt exist, we've only being using it for the past 60 years but I guess that it better to know that you've wasted part of your life doing some mundane task in work to go buy the next installment of crap (in reference of Vista) they produce!

Its like allowing the Music Corporations to choose what standard and media they want to allow on the market, mp3's would never exist and your mobile ringtone would be DRM enabled and last for 50 rings before have to pay for it again (actually that's a great idea to stop all those stupid ringtones)!

Anyway, its Friday and I've spent the week fixing crap Vista on laptops and now the hard drive has failed, time to drop it out of the 5 floor window and claim the warranty!

Its heading back to mainframes!

* as per marketing directives

Paris cause if your gonna get screwed you might as well enjoy it!

If they get this one wrong they'll be supporting windowsXP for another 7 years and their market share will continue to be eaten away.

Effectively Windows 7 = Vista 2 = a second chance

If they can pull off what they did from Win98 to WinXP, they'll be in with a fighting chance of clawing back disgruntled users.

Until then, it's winXP, or switch to Mac / Linux - or use all three ;)

I hate to be one of those who've had no problems with Vista at all - given that many are intent on punting their foot right up the backside of the latest Gates/Ballmer installation - but it's true. It looks nice; it plays games; I've had no problems.

However checking my CPU temperature, I found that Vista runs at about 5 to 10C hotter than Ubuntu. Work than one out!

Maybe they'll agree that Vista was just a beta version and give Vista-buyers the "final" version for free. Not likely, knowing MS.

The only way that people will pay money for it is if MS did what Apple did and built a new system on a new base. But we know they're not doing that. So this is just the same sausage, churned a bit more.

So windows 7 ... is it really 7?

Early years

3.11 for workgroups

NT 4

... so 3 + 4 is 7 already, but MS is not counting like that.

Win 95

Win 98

Win 2000

Win ME

Win XP

Win Vista

then comes 7 (?????), no wonder excel cant count, and that is not including sub divisions like 98 SE and Vista crap, crapper and super crap.

I do wonder if MS can make an OS that is functional against it's own spec since they have been trying for at least 10 versions so far.

How about some transparency in naming os the OS's, that would be a good start!

Oh yeah and just how many versions of Ubuntu and OSX are likly to come out in the time between MS press releases, let alone software releases.

I think Windows toleraters is more accurate.

In the article, you state; "But expectations are rising that it will make a crash landing in the second half of 2009." Doesn't Windows almost always make a Crash Landing when it is released?

The ideal solution for Windows 7 would be Vista gadgets and eye candy on top of XP. After all, they could easily say XP is the most thoroughly tested OS on the planet. But what'll probably happen is a different default color scheme with Aeroglass turned off which they'll then trumpet as being 2.7% faster than Vista.

I don't think I'd mind Vista so much if it didn't spend the majority of its increased resource requirements on treating me like a copyright pirate. Dump the DRM and all the internal data encryption and there might become fun to use.

"so this is an announcement about an announcement"

Yep! You know your company is really going down the tubes when your marketing people start hyping the next hype.

IT icon, because this whole piece clearly has *no* IT content whatsoever.

Oh really, are they coming out with windows 7 and is it going to be just as shit as the last release ?

When they completely kill windows and come up with something new that does not need a nuclear reactor for power can someone please wake me up then.

Snooze icon

“We, as a team, definitely learned some lessons about ‘disclosure’ and how we can all too easily get ahead of ourselves in talking about features before our understanding of them is solid"

Talking about features before understanding them, do they mean the marketing department tell the engineers what features Windows should have?, if so I think we've finally found the problem at Micro$haft, marketing department led engineering, ohhhh it can't be good.

However, keep it up Micro$haft, I'm going to earn another small fortune rolling out Windows 7 for customers, then another fortune applying the patches to fix the thing.

(Mines the one with the black AMex card in the pocket)

Can M$ shoot themselves in the foot some more? They are just asking to overtaken by Linux. Unfortunately, this gives those douchebag apple users a leg up.

It's named Windows 7, so that they can deep 6 the previous version, when it comes out. Of course by the time it does comes out, they have stuffed it to the size of a Zeppelin with lock-in protocols for cloud computing and cloud sailing.

Ye Gads - learning lessons, taking responsibility and being more transparent? Has Redmond been annexed by New Labour?! ?

How long after the launch of their next OS before we see pretty, middle-aged female spokespersons explaining how Windows 7 is only unpopular because M$ 'didn't win the argument', how they 'didn't explain clearly enough' how good the product is and how they are now 'listening', 'learning hard lessons' and 'having a public debate' with consumers.

It's now becoming a classic method of revisionist excuse making; our product is failing because people don't understand how good it is. Better to believe your own hype than face up to the fact that you're sh*t and the only reason everyone sticks with you is because your opponents are either arrogant, elitist ars*holes or amateurish fringe types with no clue about running a country... err running an operating system.

It's absolutely fine. I'm running Visual Studio, Netbeans and Rad Studio along with Office and SQL Server Express. Not had any problems on this laptop.

it's just a media /perception thing, kind of like the current state of the Labour party.

I used Ubuntu for a while, but got fed up when I had to restart the Window server every time I miss typed my WEP key/specified it as the wrong type of key.

Apple make you upgrade to get the new version of Java, something Sun don't charge for. Oh, and you need to buy a new OS every 2 years to get the latest Safari. Microsoft still produce a web browser for the OS the was released in 2001. Apple only go back as far as OS X 10.4.

Vista is not as bad as most of the sheep on here think

Microsoft's slogan should be "Try it, You'' Love it". Or is that taken?

No, MS can count, but they've been running two streams:

Personal: Win 3, Win 95, 95 OSR2 (=96), 98, 98 2nd ed (=99), ME (=2000, cos they couldn't merge it with NT like they thought, but had already handed over the year number)

Network: NT3, NT4, Win 2000 (= NT5), XP or 2002 (=NT6), Windows 7 hooray in 2010 (=NT7)

I remember when Win 95 was launched, the advertising told us we'd never need another Windows OS because they'd issue patches forever hahahahahahahahahahaha

I suggest that MS create a core/kernel to their operating system with a bunch of modular libraries. When critical updates or security fixes come up, users could do something like download files...you could suffix them with something like "rpm" or the like. They would install and there would rarely ever be a need to reboot (again and again and again).

If some new feature or app appeared that was simply a "must have", they could make sure it is based on a set of general, shared libraries (all in this "rpm" or similar format). Then, instead of buying a whole new OS, you just keep installing/updating these "rpm" (or similar) thingies! The only time one would ever need to buy a OS would be when the kernel or core underwent a major revision. There would be no reboots, no yearly race to the store to buy yet another largely redundant OS with only slight modifications in it to "justify" an entire new purchase, and everyone would be happier.

@jeremy & Jonathan

NT3 is 3 (nobody used it basically..), NT4 is 4, 2000 is NT5, XP is 5.1, Vista is 6. If you go to a command prompt and run "ver", it'll say version 5.1.(bunch of digits) for XP for instance. (bunch of digits) might change depending on service pack.

A correction to "Microsoft has continued to insist that Windows 7 won't be available to customers until the start of 2010. But expectations are rising that it will make a crash landing in the second half of 2009." I'd say it's more like "Microsoft wants to start rumors it'll crash land in the second half of 2009." They've ALWAYS said new versions are coming out artificially early, to try to get anyone who doesn't like the CURRENT version of Windows to decide "well, the next one's coming shortly."

Microsoft has no possibility of "getting it right" or they would have done so by now. They are irrevocably committed to operating systems that thoroughly and completely suck. Windows 7 will be Windows, which means it will suck.

The other problem is that Microsoft is driven by its own needs for mega-money and mega-monopoly, not by the needs of computer users. Sometimes those needs overlap, but not always. Microsoft will continue to force unwanted technologies down its users' throats (no one wants Silverlight but you're getting it anyway!) while kissing the collective arses of RIAA/MPAA goons.

Switch to Linux. Switch *now* and don't look back. Windows 7 will suck, guaranteed.

MS need to bring out a new OS in the next couple of years as Vista has got stung in the corporate upgrade cycle.

Corporations usually install an OS then skip the next one and so on.

So a firms that went with NT4 would have skipped 2000 and gone to XP. They will now mostly skip Vista and rollout the next one.

Firms that went with 95 would have gone to 2000 and will be looking at rolling out Vista quite probably (though many would probably be planning with XP).

Unfortunately a lot of firms went with NT4. Whoops.

Oh fuck!

Jonathan - you forgot Vista!

NT 3

NT 4

NT 5 = Win 2K

NT 5.1 = Win XP (check it - type ver at an XP command prompt!)

NT 6 = Vista

NT 7 = Windows 7

Pedants of the world unite!

Sorry--you're right and that's what I intended to say but must've had an attack of something. What I did say is a perfect example of Muphry's Law: when you correct someone else you will include a mistake of your own.

I just do not understand the mass ingratitude directed towards Microsoft. If it was not for messrs Gates and Ballmer you lot would be using Apple (imitators par excellence) or even Linux ('a cancerous polyp on the anus of humanity'-thanks Red Dwarf).

Bill Gates single-handedly invented this Internet thingie (or was it Al Gore?) that you lot seem to like, passing fad as it is. Microsoft is the embodiment of innovation and 'cloud computing' is just one of the latest heaven sent ideas to spring from the Redmond campus. Microsoft leads, others follow.

And when they, in all their majesty, give unto a grateful world the saviour that is 'Windows 7' shall all know the enlightened truth. Just as Moses was the prophet (or is that profit?) for the Lord thy God, Vista should be considered in kind towards 'Windows 7'. In fact if you are the most righteous and holy of people, you should go out an buy as many copies of Vista as possible. May Satan suckle on you testicles if you refuse in this God given task.

We all recognise that it is only a matter of time before Bill Gates is canonized by the Pope for his charity to mankind. And also that Ballmer's most holy words 'Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers!' shall become the new trinity, +1. Just as Muslims make the pilgrimage to Mecca, in the years to come the devout shall journey to Redmond. Praise be.

And to my brothers 'Anonymous Coward', hallelujah!

Not another one...

It feels great to be free and use my computer how I want to use it

Tux because Linux rules for me since 2004 and never looking back

@Jonathan *shrug* Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about, I've done it from time to time 8-)

Regarding first post, heh -- Ubuntu'll have *3* more releases out by the time Windows 7 comes out... IF it comes out in late 2009 (hah!) Ubuntu version is year.month BTW, I didn't relize this at first.. So 6.06 was released June 2006. 6.06 was 2 months late (i.e. it "should" have been 6.04); 6.10, 7.04, 7.10, and 8.04 have come out since then. I wasn't impressed by 6.06. 7.04 was MUCH nicer. By 7.10 they finally had it so I think non-Linux user could set everything up without help (monitor resolution of all things, and nice printer setup, were the last two things needed for this to happen). 8.04 made quite a few nice tweaks, and added the desktop effects for some bling (among many other improvements). What do 8.10, 9.04, and 9.10 have in store? I don't know but I think Windows 7 is in for a hell of a fight.

So Microsoft is about to announce another shafting? I'm so glad the the Reg is there to help them along as they fleece the sheep for yet another round. Starting with helping them fan the hype for their next set of sheep shears.

...as we will be rolling it out to a corporate environment we will be disabling/hiding/removing 75% of the features anyway.

All we need for business use is a lean, stable and secure platform that enables us (the company) to allow users to run JUST the applications they need to do the job. Nothing more.

MS moved away from this scenario from 2000 onwards.

What's the betting Orifice 2009 won't be able to run on XP?

Or, knowing M$, they'll try and merge Windoze and Orifice (whilst producing a cut down version without Orifice - or virtually anything else - to please the lawyers)

Let's face it - they've (just about) got away with bundling (mainly very basic, cut down versions of) an Internet browser, an email program, an IM application, a media player, a video editor, a DVD creator, and a firewall.

What's left apart from a useless AV / security suite, some form of photo editor, and Orifice?

Then by Windows 8 or 9, it will probably be virtually impossible to run the OS on a standalone box, as they'll try to wean us onto subscribing to online versions of many applications, especially Orifice...

Bill because everyone at M$ will still treat him like a prophet and lap up every crazy new idea he comes up with...

There seems to be a lot of people vying to be the biggest M$ hater here.

I understand many of the criticisms, but it makes me wonder what you're doing if you have such vast problems with your Windows installs etc. As a sysadmin for 16 years I've used and deployed lots of operating systems, including VMS, Solaris, linux and of course Windows. I can honestly say that since NT4 SP2 I've not had any real trouble. Sure, Vista has a few things I'm not so keen on - but it has always worked just fine for me on average hardware.

I believe in a 'horses for courses' approach. Linux is great for lots of things, rightfully deserves it's place in the market and will hopefully keep on getting better, but if you're deploying basic directory/file/print/email etc then 2003/8 server with XP clients is way more convenient and supportable IMHO. They don't break if you know what you're doing with them and are a doddle to look after. My company isn't deploying Vista because it doesn't offer enough extra for us - but that doesn't mean it's rubbish at all. I've had far more trouble with 3rd party apps.

I'm no MS fanboy and I don't work in Redmond - I just think that some of you need to grow up a bit, especially if you consider yourselves IT professionals.

(if anything I'm a VMS fanboy, but unfortunately it's had it's day now)

"Microsoft remains tight-lipped and focused on re-marketing its unloved Vista OS"

That explains CPC offering vista home premium for £35.00 plus vat then , funny , i thought Mongsoft were software marketeers , not experts in waste management .

"oh keep that money rolling in ,

'cos Steve and lonely Billbo ,

can't get enough of it ,

Lets dance."

The court decision in the DOJ v Microsoft antitrust case determined that it is illegal to continue to commingle IE with the OS. So Vista along with 7 are illegally sold and distributed in violation of US Federal law.

Of course Microsoft could care less. It is more important to screw stupid and ignorant Microsoft customers by removing their ability to pick and choose key applications.

Even those Microsoft customers who think they are intelligent simply are not. And they have been rendered unimportant.

Too bad some idiots think they are competent by buying or using Microsoft software when Microsoft proves the opposite is true by their continue use of illegal practices.

This is what is wrong with Windows. It costs way too much (anything over £100 is too much) and no longer is the best OS on the market for the consumer.

Money aside:

Use a Mac, the OS is cheap, but the hardware is grossly overpriced that no wonder they can sell an upgrade every year for 79.99$... hum? ho wait... 79.99x5 =....

Linux is Free Hurray.... it can run on 386 with 640k of ram.. no more need for upgrade i can now keep my computer for 10+ years! but what use can i have for a oversize clock? or decent computer wotj an OS that is FREE but the support cost more then MS taxe on new computer.....

Mac is (and always will be) a piece of crap and yes you can polish a turd, apple proves it year after year... they also prove that a polished turd can be sell for far more money then a un polish one. (Take generic, badly design X86 hardware, put a Apple sticker on it, put a basterd BIOS, sell for 1000$'s more)

Funny how Vista on a 2007-2008 hardware with RECENT programs work fine... but when you install it on a 2003 computer (or a 499$ 2008 computer) the problems shows up. the solution is not hard... you got a old computer stick with XP... plaing on a new one.. get vista.

Paris? because she probably own every single Mac model ever made. (her IQ is perfecly representing the avarage Mac use IQ)

If all companies where to be punish for illegal behavior, Apple whould be down under for a long time now (illegal DRM, FORCE application and NOW CHOICE of software, LOCKED DOWN HARDWARE) apple is the whorst monopoly to ever exist in the computer era, this is a FACT now deal with it. (make a effort i know it is hard without a proper IQ but there is pills for that)

I've never paid for Windows.

In fact, I've never paid for any software I've used on a Windows system save for games and the occasional bit of open source programming I've supported with a donation.

When Microsoft can manage to stay out of court for two years in a row behind theft of intellectual property or unsavory business practices I'll listen to them knock on about 'piracy'.

In the meantime, I find that whatever software it is I manage to come across, it's never worth the money. And that, quite frankly, is annoying.

Particularly given the prices.

"In the meantime, I find that whatever software it is I manage to come across, it's never worth the money. And that, quite frankly, is annoying."

There's this idea that I have right... if you don't think a piece of software is up to the job and you aren't willing to pay for it then don't use it. Find something else that DOES suit your requirements (or gets close enough) and use that instead, there's plenty to chose from.

Nobody is forced to buy a specific piece of software, there's always a choice and just because you think what you use is the best for you doesn't make it true for everybody else.

I'm a windows user through and through, I've used linux a lot but it's not what I want from an OS. Learning to get linux work how you want it to takes just as much effort as learning how to customise windows properly and I just can't understand what makes people think otherwise.

its unloved and hated. because theres no sites telling you how to remove all the MS shit you dont need

Nothing wrong with Vista from where I'm sitting (except the price of course).

I hope MS don't rush 7 because of the problems they've been having getting acceptance for Vista technologies.

I do wish game developers would make more of an effort to let their games work properly on *nix based systems. I would then quite happily abandon the NT platform.

However, most others would not, as *nix based systems are more arcane and most computer users want to point and click.

Windows best feature is it's ease of use.

Ubuntu's best feature is Synaptic.

I love ID Software.

After the first service pack.

But there will be no real reason to upgrade from XP or Vista.

But when you buy a spanking new PC you may as well get 7.

Re: all the "use Ubuntu" comments:

OK you could get Ubuntu for a reasonable price, but in teh long run you will end up with a product having a larger cost. Not in hard cash, maybe, but certainly in time and effort. Me, I want a PC I can switch on, use, plug any shit I buy into and just be done with it.

I hate Microsoft for so many reasons but I use XP and Vista because (as long as I use AV and a real firewall - which lets face it are not that difficult and are also free) they do what I want, when I want with very little fuss.

Thats an intersting postion, so all your MS application work nicely together. How nice for you.

I do however take issue with your statement, about OSX, in that we have an eMac (yes thats an e) running OSX 10.3 or 4 it might even be 10.5.

My point, is that you can run 10.5 on 2 year old hardware at least. So long as you have 512meg and at least 900Mhz it will run, and run just fine thank you.

Now try that with Vista, go on I dare you, run vista on a machine from two years ago.

Oh lets be fair, run it on 900Mhz with 512Meg.

Now compare the cost, which you have to compare with the one with all the features.

Or of course you could just accept that no one company is more pure then the next, that they all screw thier users over in some respect. Accept that MS has issues, it clearly does, Vista is late with half its functionality descoped, and they cant count, surely (ignoring the consumer side (3, 3fwg, 95, 98 and ME)) Vista is windows 7.....(NT3, NT4, Win2K[5], XP[6], Vista[7].....). Unless of course Vista is just a face lift to XP or was XP just a face lift to Win2K.

They do need to take a leaf out of Apples book, and its not copying their UI or functionality. It is to ditch the backwards compatiability for older systems, yes some wont like it, but some times to encourage growth you have to trim the deadwood (oooh that makes a good codename ;)).

I use and recommend vista at work. I have found Intel machines with XP to be unstable, the AMD processor driver seems to fix most of these issue's in XP but to be consistent I recommend Vista.

I find Vista to be relatively quick on a modern machine, and it hums along nicely as long as you have got a very fast hard disk or a RAID config and lots of RAM (4GB +). I don't understand why they bothered with a 32 bit version though its useless with its 3 1/2 Gb memory limit?

I do however have one HUGE annoyance with Vista, and it has spread to windows server 2008.

The networking stack has been written by a bunch of drunken monkeys on acid.

I regularly find that the a network connection will refuse to pick up an address from a DHCP server, and when you nail an address in place it still refuses to work, The only solution I have found is to run a virtual machine with XP or Ubuntu and bridge the network card... Yes the VM then can use the network while the host still tells you that the network is screwed..

I find I have this problem on Dell hardware, Gigabyte motherboards, Asus motherboards and one HP laptop that I have recently used. It does not always happen but when it does you bet I need it to work urgently.

I Don't hate M$ as they pay my bills but I do wish they could get the basics of an OS right before they ship it, at least the Linux guys can do it and most of them are not paid to work on it.

Business people are not buying Vista, but XP.

Business people are the only ones really buying Office.

Therefore, unless MS is really, really, really stupid, they will make Office 2009 run on XP as well as Vista.

AC said

"I'm a windows user through and through, I've used linux a lot but it's not what I want from an OS. Learning to get linux work how you want it to takes just as much effort as learning how to customise windows properly and I just can't understand what makes people think otherwise."

I would certainly never suggest that Linux is better than Windows because it is easier. I don't know where you got that idea.

Windows - Need to learn a lot to use it properly

Linux - Need to learn a lot to use it properly

Windows - Insecure bloated mess that constantly gets infected with viruses without gobs of anti-malware apps to protect it and crashes constantly (I write this while I wait for my Vista PC to reboot after a BSOD caused by VS2008 hanging while "converting a project from a previous version". Pah.

Linux - Virtually never gets infested with malware, rarely crashes.

Windows - Costs lots of dollars, support apps cost lots more, have to agree to restrictive EULAs

Linux - Free as in beer, free as in Freedom

So, when you say "Linux is not what I want from an OS" you are actually saying "I'm an idiot and would prefer to put my efforts into learning a bloated, insecure and expensive OS because, well, just because."

Good luck on that one AC.

"Accept that MS has issues, it clearly does, Vista is late with half its functionality descoped, and they cant count, surely (ignoring the consumer side (3, 3fwg, 95, 98 and ME)) Vista is windows 7.....(NT3, NT4, Win2K[5], XP[6], Vista[7].....). Unless of course Vista is just a face lift to XP or was XP just a face lift to Win2K"

Gaah, MS might not be able to count, but you can't read. Two or three posts in this thread have already explained that, so I'll do it again.

NT4

Win2000 = NT5.0

XP = NT 5.1

Vista = NT6

Windows 7 = NT7

*bangs head against wall*

Also, just for snarks:

"OK you could get Ubuntu for a reasonable price, but in teh long run you will end up with a product having a larger cost. Not in hard cash, maybe, but certainly in time and effort. Me, I want a PC I can switch on, use, plug any shit I buy into and just be done with it."

A: Ubuntu is free

B: The support isn't that pricey, if you decide that forums and copying and pasting solutions is too hard. I can't recall exactly what it is, something like £30 a month. If you are having a specific problem/s then get a months support and get them all sorted. Quite sure you can do that, but I'm happy to be corrected [it's too late at night to be googling that shit for me]. Once *nix systems are up, they tend to stay up, certainly more than any Win32 system I have used. Haven't had to wipe this lappy once, even over three OS upgrades. just tell it to update to the latest release, leave it for an hour and it's done. Lovely. And no £180 price tag with it, ta.

C: I changed to Ubuntu so I *could* just turn my PC on and have it just work. I use this lappy for wanking/banking and for that it does a wonderful job. I have an XP machine for if I need to do something Windows Hardware Compatability List specific, like flipping the bird at mates over 't webcam. Although I now look for hardware that is Linux/Ubunto known good, to work around that. The same way that you would look for a Vista Compatible sticker on any hardware you buy to make sure it's certified to work on Vista.

I'll admit with most hardware, it just works with Windows [and the drivers, natch] but there's a good reason for that - it's called Windows having 90%+ of the market, which is a pretty fucking big incentive for hardware vendors making their stuff work on the 32bit NT5/6 code base. However, if you are selective about your hardware, Linux will 'just work' to a frankly gobsmacking degree.

I'm a hardware/desktop support/network tech - it's in my interest to know this sort of shite inside out, and I'm quite happy to admit that there are people out there like yourselves who simply aren't as IT savvy as some of us and don't get the concept of, say, educating yourself before making a purchase. And that's fine. Stick with your Windows, BSODs and systems that slowly start grinding to a halt and DRM - they keep me in pocket money, that's for sure.

No comment on Mac OS - too knackered.

I'll get my coat - it's the dressing gown with the frayed sleeves.

Steven "Insomnia sucks and makes me ratty" Raith.

I love it when people sign in here and tell me that Vista is great because they don't have a problem with it and that the problem must be with me. I guess I'm just dreaming when the Vista lapper we have in the house just goes BSOD on me for no reason whatever. Before I hear some flack, the lapper was bought WITH Vista, was Vista certified, made by a name brand manufacturer and has almost no additional software added to it outside of a couple of games and VLC.

@ the "trying to be the biggest MS hater" comment - I don't hate MS because of problems I've had with them. I've supported them and used XP for ages with very few problems that, admittedly, were mostly caused by 3rd party drivers. I hate MS because I don't like their business practices, I don't like the DRM, I don't like having a monopolistic, giant corporation telling me what I can and cannot do with my equipment and I mostly don't like being stuck with a cookie cutter desktop unless I go through third party software and more hoops than a circus acrobat to make it something decent looking.

Mines the one with the OpenGEU disk in the pocket and a thumb drive chock full o' nifty little apps for maintainint MS crap.

You see how much I love you all? Two hours sleep and I find this for you [admittedly not exactly a challenge]

http://www.ubuntu.com/support/paid

US$250 for a years desktop support from Canonical themselves.

I realise that's more of a business thing, but there was a 'retail' Ubuntu distro that was about £30 which as I recall included a couple of months support bundled with it, which is the one I was thinking about.

There, not *that* bad at all is it?

Steven "Grouchy" R

But that doesn't mean Windows, in general, does.

I'll have my fingers crossed that Windows 7 sees MS getting real and quitting the dodgey YOU-MUST-COMPLY and bloatware-rules attitude.

People want XP+ and they want it configurable, they do not want the MS version of Apple's OS and to be spanked like a naughty child when they try and do anything out of the ordinary.

Oh, and they don't want the utils and apps they have bought over the last 10 years at great expense to all stop working (I thought backwards compatibility was an MS 'thing'?)

IIS sucks, Apache is way better. IE sucks, Xbox sucks, Vista Sucks.

About the only thing that does not toally suck, is Office still (although the 2007 UI sucks).

Anyone who's done any support at all would probably assume it's you.

"Just goes BSOD on me for no reason whatsoever." Really? You weren't doing anything on it at all - just sitting there watching it - and it just went pop? Sure. If that's so, and you were on Linux, people would most likely say it's probably overheating/duff RAM/power supply. But obviously in this case it's Vista.

" ... has almost no additional software added to it outside of a couple of games and VLC." Oh, come on. Try full disclosure. The Reg Readers would love to see some. Although they'll never believe it if and when they get it ...

NT4

Win2000 = NT5.0

XP = NT 5.1 << as its based on the NT5 Kernel

Vista = NT6

Windows 7 = NT6.1 << as its based on the Vista Kernel

yes? no?

I still say they cant count.

"after a BSOD caused by VS2008 hanging"

Hang on, Windows Vista didn't cause this error, VS2008 did. Your blaming the wrong product there!

Why not run VS2008 on Linux?....oh wait you can't, because Linux doesn't support it. Maybe because Linux doesn't support as many products, it doesn't crash as much. Hmm.

I'm moving to ReactOS as soon as its stable enough and ditching windows altogether.

Nobody would say that MS aren't a pretty damn ruthless company, but then so are many others. They have had, and continue to get a roasting in the courts. Good.

But leave the DRM rubbish out of it:

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=299&tag=rbxccnbzd1

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=304&tag=rbxccnbzd1

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=309&tag=rbxccnbzd1

But then you probably think it's all a conspiracy. Sigh.

IT angle because the discussion seems to border on fundamentalism most of the time..

>>"after a BSOD caused by VS2008 hanging"

> Hang on, Windows Vista didn't cause this error, VS2008 did. Your blaming the wrong product there!

No, he's not... what sort of crappy operating system (I'm not expecting answers, by the way...) falls over and dies because it doesn't properly manage the applications running under it?

> Why not run VS2008 on Linux?....oh wait you can't, because Linux doesn't support it. Maybe because Linux doesn't support as many products, it doesn't crash as much. Hmm.

No, it doesn't crash as much because it has a well-designed, modular structure, is truly multi-tasking (not a beefed-up toy consumer OS), and uses a dependency database for code libraries to maintain compatibility of installed applications, or "avoids DLL Hell" for short. Some of my servers have been running happily for over a year without re-booting, so add decent memory management to that list. Oh, and add the "No Linux viruses, ever" to the analysis (NetProject still offers a huge sum of money to anyone who can actually infect one of their properly-configured Linux boxes with a "Linux virus").

Another braincell-challenged numpty who probably has no idea of how long computer science existed without Ctrl-Alt-Del and blue screens of death...