How many forums?

Which forums?

How many for?

How many against?

>>But offering XP to users is not a solution, according to Microsoft, which notes that many new peripherals are developed explicitly for Vista.<<

Apart from devices for playing back "premium content", exactly what devices are these then ?

Good on the dutch.

I'm sorry but it's hard for me to have any sympathy for Microsoft after pulling a stunt like this... Anybody remember the problems when converting from 9x platform to NT, or NT to 2K (yes there were quite a few NT devices that wouldn't work on 2k boxes... What about the relative few, when converting from 2K to XP? Granted, those were mainly software incompatibilities, but they were still problems, none the less.

Vista, while a great idea on paper (like communism and socialism), is one of the worst planned and executed bombs that has ever come out of the MS empire. And forcing consumers and some corporations, at gun point, to switch from their standards, like this, is nothing shy of blatant stupidity...

Only an arrogant idiot (yes, oxymoron in this case) would honestly believe that they could get away with a stunt like this...

Windows VISTA and all products that are expected to work with the new OS will take time to mature.

I've been using the new OS for more than a month now on a custom-built PC and I am still trying to solve interoperability and stability issues.

Windows VISTA comes with advantages compared to XP. If you are buying a VISTA PC, make sure it comes preinstalled from a trusted manufacturer and accompanied by compatible peripherals.

I think people have a right to a glitch free and fully functioning OS when they pay big money to a company that has decades of experience. It's obvious that MS is trying to control it's customers by making Vista the way it is. Perhaps the Dutch are starting to see the light.

On another subject: I noticed that there is an unusual number of people with Microsoft promo sounding talk posting on other forums regarding this. I wonder if MS is so desperate they are getting people to post for them. That would be pretty pathetic.

"I've been using the new OS for more than a month now on a custom-built PC and I am still trying to solve interoperability and stability issues."

A New World Order System for MSControl is not interested in interoperability and stability with compatibility, Anonymous Coward, as surely the very fact that Vista does not work well on a custom-built PC must tell you. It is working perfectly well as intended though..... to bring down Microsoft?

"Windows VISTA comes with advantages compared to XP" ........ Advantages for whom as a complaint oft heard is that there is less individual customisable Control of Vista than XP which would mean that such Control is being ceded to MSBig Brother.

And that is never ever going to be a roaring success, is it, as it would render it as a Sub-Prime Operating System milking Systems rather than being a Valuable and Valid Tool with which to run Systems within AI Beta System of Virtualised Controls in and above the Clouds?

Been there, done that, got the AI T-shirt?

Hark, ...what is that I see before me .... the distant sound of black helicopters?

Don't forget the Virtual Reality though, IT is only AI Business and QuITe normal Wall Street, Dog eat Dog Practice. In fact, it must surely be XPected.

The first three paragraphs of that post actually made sense... Then he went off to dadaland again.

i must admit that there a definate fair few problems with vista. Im running Vista on my acer - its home premium and came as a free upgrade. i like its look and feel, and for use as a media center its very good, certainly looks good when my friends come round. Ive got vista ultimate on my dell laptop, and i tend to use that for more enthusisast tasks. one of the things that really makes vista a no go for me is that its useless at manageing files and folders on another machine, if i copy, paste, or delete from my vista rigs to my file server, everything seems to take an age, all it seems to do is say its calculating the time remaining. scandelouse.

i hate to say it, but the best m$ operating system that i have used is server 2k3x64 - solid as a rock, no real idiosyncrases, just relyable and gets the job done!

Maybe if the 5000 complaints hadn't been using Computers that could barely run XP then there wouldn't be a problem.

How many of these complaints are from the same person?

You wouldn't expect the Quake wars to run on the Original specs for quake 1 would you??? So why expect old creaky machines to do just that???

I've got an ancient PC with 32mb of ram and it runs 98SE fine, but I can't even find a version of linux that will run on hardware that limited.

Never buy a stock built PC, it will come loaded with 'FREE software worth £500!!' - which includes rubbish like Norton Virus, Yahoo Spyware, Google Search Tracking, Dell PC Stability Reducer and other such rubbish.

" I wonder if MS is so desperate they are getting people to post for them. That would be pretty pathetic"

Well they've got previous for it - there have been several stories about Microsoft "buying" bloggers etc.

Nothing about Microsoft surprises me - they will do anything to ensure we all remain locked to their bloatware. OK maybe not anything.. I really do hope they would draw the line at murder, but everything up to that point (bribery & corruption, coercion, threats, etc.) seems to be perfectly acceptable to them.

That most users do not have the time and inclination to become guinea pigs for yet another new operating system, i.e. vista. They cannot stop for weeks to sort things out as they fix

WHAT MICROSOFT SHOULD HAVE SORTED B4 RELEASING

VISTA .

I am sticking to XP.

Maybe it's time we started to see the IP address of people posting comments.

While it isn't the direction Microsoft want people to take ("upgrading" to XP rather than "degrading" to Vista), perhaps the consumer really should be given that option by default.

Just because a car manufacturer brings out a new Coupe doesn't mean everyone will want or need it - sometimes you need a people carrier to get where you want to be. Putting a different badge on the boot of the Coupe doesn't mean it gives you the functionality you need.

One fly in the ointment is the way Microsoft blatantly ignored peoples' update settings and forced through a set of updates recently that hadn't been asked for or agreed to - and i'm sure many people have had "issues" with updates that either broke the machine or dragged down performance to Vista levels.

...Some of you may know what I mean i.e. installing .NET 3.x - if this was forcibly rolled out to customers without asking, you'd have to move to linux !

The more recent idea of "backporting" Vista^H^HKafka-esque functionality to XP is also a little worrying.

Thankfully Ubuntu Gutsy Gibbon is out in four days, and will install to a file under NTFS using Wubi offering dual boot capability - you can have the best of both worlds without risking your primary OS :-)

Funny you should mention that you can't find a linux distrib that runs on your Win98 box - people had been working on linux since 1991 using even slower equipment than yours - they didn't take a 10 year break to wait until new equipment made it worthwhile.

Perhaps you need to find yourself an old distrib, Redhat 5.x perhaps. If you're desperate, i'm sure i've got it around here somewhere - you can find my email address over at http://www.coreutilities.co.uk

...Wait... you mean you want a new distrib with all the features ? - if you're so sure it should work, go and buy Vista for it. If you're so sure a new linux distrib should work on it, i'm sure Vista will too !

How about a stripped out linux kernel running on top of vista to sniff out devices, load its modules and plug the output back into vista as a fully functioned but generic device of the same type?

Then it would be easier to install this one penguin based and gpl'd 'universal driver' than go hunting for the poxy things. Half the MS systems out there would have to run it....and then...and then the world would be ours.....all your base are belong to us....mwahahahaha.....

See what happens when a man from mars starts to make sense ??

"OK maybe not anything.. I really do hope they would draw the line at murder, but everything up to that point (bribery & corruption, coercion, threats, etc.) seems to be perfectly acceptable to them."

It's called marketing.

puppy linux. Tried and tested on a config with that little ram, by me and others.

never buy a stock built pc?

buy one with vista, it works

build your own and can't get vista working? That's YOUR fault...

Not Microsofts - they are not your mum - if you are incapable of finding the correct drivers etc - go and buy a package off the shelf...

Honestly - what are you all moaning about?

Vista doesn't work on my homemade piece of crap?

IT IS BECAUSE YOU CAN'T GET IT TO WORK

Vista works on my 'off the shelf' entertainment PC

It works on all my laptops

it EVEN works on my home built games pc - did i have more trouble with it? of course i did...is that Microsofts' fault? NO it is not...!

Stop moaning about Vista and get on with it...

they should be in next years Guiness book of records !

Vista is pure 'byproduct of the bovine growing industry. most notably of the male bovine kind.'

Microsoft will 'retire' XP from oem channels in Q2 next year. i stocked up on a bunch of licences already ...

i have played with Vistai for 2 months.

- its slow ( even with all the eyecandy switched off

- every 2 freaking seconds it needs attention so it can run a piece of software ( allow-deny question)

- older software continually has these nagging screens.

- its confused with drive mappings.

and lastly :

- file copying is slow . i blame the RIAA for that. They're probably snooping every time you copy or move a file with vista. Seeing how they are in league with M$... come on, it's the only logical explanation right ? Doen't vista mean 'view' like in : We now are having a nice 'Vista' on what resides on all these people's computers.

Tin-foil hat , asbestos underwear , lead coat, hazmat suit, door... taxi !

The only way you can have Vista 'forced' on you is if you buy a new system. If you do buy a new system, it will work.

All the pre installed Vista boxes I've seen seem to work just fine, including my GFs new Vista laptop which so far has not exhibited any problems whatever in regular use.

If you went out and bought Vista to install on something else, and it didn't work, tough shit, what did you expect ? Obviously the box you are trying to run it on is not compatible with the Vista spec, or your hardware is unsupported.

You should have checked before you CHOSE to spend your money.

Those who are saying that MS is forcing people to upgrade at gunpoint are falling into the zealotry trap.

I have as many reasons to hate MS as the next person, especially under Ballmer, and some of their recent treatment of developers has been astonishingly shoddy (you want to talk about actual forced upgrades, talk to some developers), and they didn't pay me for this post, but my experience with all of MS software (from DOS 3 onwards) has been much less troublesome than this constant whining would suggest, and certainly on the whole less troublesome than the many linux distros I've used over the same time period. [1]

I've said it before, and I'll say it many more times, most of the people who have really messed up windows systems are incompetent and are trying to offload the blame for this onto MS. There's no need for this, there are plenty of real issues to complain about.

And for the linux jihad, who are about to wade in and paint me as an MS shill, I can see two linux boxes from where I'm sitting, and I have three VM based nix installs on the box I'm typing this on. Ironically enough, these are all installed in MS Virtual PC. Go figure.

[1] Granted, I haven't yet tried any of the wazzy new super easy distros like ubuntu, because all I have to spare is legacy hardware that isn't adequately spec'd. It would be pretty stupid to expect a good experience from the new and bloaty forms of nix desktop on a shitty old box, now wouldn't it ?

Stan, you're the man ...for is that a NeuReal Virtualised OS proposal from stock components customised?

"See what happens when a man from mars starts to make sense ??" .... Hmmm?

Have you ever considered that it always makes sense but the subject is simply complex to start with?

What do you know of Virtual Reality Applications in Terms of Relativity to the Beta Management of Perception via the CyberIntelAIgent ARGonaut Portal aka NeuReal World Order Programming? More than you Imagine, one would always hope.

Definitely more if you can Imagine IT, that's for sure.

Why do people blame Microsoft for printer drivers not working? I hate to defend M$, but this is not only their fault. It is the fault of the printer manufacturers.

The printer companies don't want you using that old printer... they want you to get fed up and go out to buy a new one.

What I _do_ swear at are the number of Microsoft products that have problems on their own OS!! Or trying to get it to sit happy in small networks with XP or Win 9x PCs. Usually involves setting up a split network and extra printers...

As to Linux and pre-win98 hardware.... my router is Linux running on a 486 with 16MB RAM.... mmmm... 72-pin EDO goodness... and an AMD 586 (100Mhz beast!!)

Thanks Mr Ballmer. Wondered how long it would take for you to bring your unique pursuasive intellect to these premises

One is the product of a cunning stunt.

Congratulations - so you're the person who's made it work!

My university's not upgrading, and I don't want to be one of the ones who finds out the hard way that my machine's incompatible. It may be OK on new machines, but new machines just to run an operating system are not an option in many cases.

Applications which run normally and are central to anyone's operation should run normally on an upgraded system - after all there's all the code is in the new OS. Drivers, I agree, could be a different matter, but the bloat surrounding any new Microsoft product is enough to put many people off.

Including me - I'm saving up for an iMac.

Pick the sentance parser of your choice (http://visl.sdu.dk/visl/en/parsing/automatic/trees.php), paste in any given sentance from amanFromMars, and marvel as his sentance structure defies all attemps to be mapped into any kind of grammatically recogosizable sentance tree.

Quite a lot of legacy business software fails to run correctly on Vista, even fairly simple apps and some handy utils. This is not a matter of hardware drivers - this is a matter of backwards compatibility with user-space software. I know about people who recently got a new name-brand Notebook PC with Vista preinstalled, and after losing a day or two trying to make their beloved apps work, they downgraded to XP (having a corporate multi-license) and were up and running in a few hours, including all the software and all the third-party hardware drivers in their most recent versions. And XP *sing* on the Vista-ready hardware :-)

Yes, there's the drawback with message-signaled interrupts, but that's quite negligible on a business desktop/laptop... If the MSI capability was back-ported to XP via SP3, that might be interesting :-)

Obviously this is going to improve over time, as third-party software suppliers provide Vista-compatible updates.

All the people saying "it's likely just old computers with a problem" - you're sort of missing a pretty large point.

It's not up to Microsoft to tell people when to upgrade their computers, and it's certainly not up to Microsoft to FORCE people to upgrade their computers. Honestly, so long as the hardware lasts, a modern office could easily survive and thrive day-to-day ops on early 90s hardware AND software, Blackberries not withstanding.

It's a huge racket. Let's release a new office suite every 2 years that really doesn't offer ANYTHING new over the previous release, certainly not enough to justify a full point release, but let's get it bundle with new computers so people into "old office trying to open new office document" problems as often as possible, and maybe they'll run out and drop $400 on the new copy.

It's the same thing with the OS. Win2k is still a fine operating system. In fact, if you strip XP of 90% of the stuff that pisses people off, you're left with... 2k. Except hey, I have an idea, even though the operating systems are virtually identical from a hardware standpoint, let's make it so drivers will refuse to work on 2k installs even though there is no real reason they couldn't. Maybe this way people will go out and buy XP upgrades.

Same with Vista, except Vista's growing pains are far worse than XP's ever were. My particular favorite thing about Vista is how it requires ~700mb of ram footprint to... show you a desktop, if you have the bells and whistles turned on. Wow, that's efficiency. Good jorb, Microsoft. Get any handjobs from the hardware lobby lately?

Linux on the desktop isn't perfect, but if you're reasonably technically savvy, then its a massive step up from Windows of any hue, and its all free. Ubuntu seems to do all that I need, and more. But then I'm not into playing games... I have a console for that :)

If some OEM wants to standardize on Vista I can't think of a legal or moral argument against it.

Microsoft still sells OEM versions of Windows XP. If your favorite vendor decides not to offer XP, you can shop elsewhere.

I'm sorry, but you are sadly mistaken.

I have tested both the 32bit and 64bit versions of business and they both suck.

Driver support is absolutely pathetic. I had two laptops, both 64 bit running 64bit Business edition, they were identical. One would allow use of a SanDisk Cruzer, the other said it could not install drivers for it. I have not had any success with Vista as far as peripherals are concerned unless you insist on using the crippled drivers shipped with the OS.

I have had a PC running fine for days, and then suddenly there is a problem with the sound card drivers (the ones shipped with the OS!!) and so no sound. As the manufacturer of the MoBo does not yet officially support Vista with drivers (The board is vista certified and should use the drivers supplied with the OS) then there is no chance of getting the sound re-enabled without doing a re-install. Then there is the added case of vanishing DVD-RW drives, DVB-T cards that simply vanish and will not re-install. A huge problem with more than 3GB ram on Nforce 3 Chipsets (64bit XP is fine, but 64 Bit Vista crashes more often than David Coulthard) even when every memory test runs fine.

Vista is simply not suitable. It is extremely resource hungry. They still have not fixed the slow file copying from network drives (or indeed internal hdd's!!)

Microsoft need to come clean, extend XP life by two years with SP3 and fix Vista. Otherwise this could become the worst OS since Windows ME.

Microsoft pays bloggers??

Hey Bill.. Bill.. Yeah Bill, it's me old buddy, old mate, I'll blog for you... My Vista machine is doing exactly the job that it was employed to do.. I've no complaints at all..

How's that? Worth a few bucks that you wouldn't notice slipping from those $billion coffers? Please? Pretty please?

I promise not to tell anyone that the job I'm employing my Vista box to do which it's so good at is to act as a door stop to my office and I won't tell anyone that I've taken steps in my clients contracts to prevent them from upgrading supported PC's to Vista without renegotiating their support contracts because supporting this monolith it so much more labour intensive. Promise.

It's a great, wonderful, holy OS which I can never find fault with, ever, and you can quote me on that for a few $k

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Want XP on your new Vista machine? Sure thing - just pay the M$ tax twice:

http://www.laptopsdirect.co.uk/xp-downgrade/page.asp

"Windows Vista has arrived but many people still prefer to use Windows XP on their laptop.

The majority of new systems come with Windows Vista built in and will continue to do so. This is why we now give you the option to downgrade to Windows XP Professional on selected laptops for only £40!"

Vista certainly negates the 'linux isn't ready for the desktop' from the MS apologists.

The reason Microsoft produces products like Vista is because they have a monopoly, and the reason they have a monopoly is because US business law protects monopolies. Do you think the US government would rather we were all using a more efficient, cheaper non Micrsosoft OS developed in Germany or China? Nope!

A couple of years ago I went to a Microsoft training event and the guy there said that Microsoft's basic programming principle is that RAM is cheap and it is easy for consumers to upgrade their machines. In other words, Microsoft doesn't design their software to meet the requirements of the user, they expect the user to design their computer use around the requirements of the OS.

However, just as we saw in the UK in the 70s, state protected monopolies breed complacency, inefficiency and, ultimately, products that fail to meet the needs of the consumer. For the first time, the average consumer now accepts that Microsoft is doing a bad job (only Microsoft fanboys actually believe Vista is a great OS) and it is only a matter of time before one of the other mega-corps get in on the act. All it will take is for a global recesion or other business disaster (eg the EU forcing the sale of PCs without OS) and a company like Google or Tesco producing a cheap, simple, clean looking, fast running OS without all the junk that comes with Vista and Microsoft will go belly-up. I wonder who will end up owning the Microsoft brand name?

hmmm the page crashed my vista laptop ;(

"If you went out and bought Vista to install on something else, and it didn't work, tough shit, what did you expect ? Obviously the box you are trying to run it on is not compatible with the Vista spec, or your hardware is unsupported."

Two or three people have advanced that "defense" here already. Fine and fair, let's say. I just want to see how many of them will say the same reasoning next time someone complains that the copy of some Linux distro they downloaded (for free) does not recognize the multimedia buttons in their laptop, or that they need to go to the command line to make their XYZ card work... For some reason, I don't see that happening. And by now everyone knows you can buy computers with Linux on them. Oh well, I guess people feel more inclined to defend a crappy product they've paid a small fortune for than they do for a crappy product they've got for free...

By the way, the latest Ubuntu runs faster on a >2 year old laptop than XP (not mine, a friend's), so nobody should be afraid of the newer distros.

I built this beast this summer it's specs are far more than Vista requires in all respects but you know what it's not running Vista I am using Slackware everything works I am not an expert everything is very very fast and you know what it worked the first time just like it was made for this mostly intel system. I am happy as a clam. I too have a console for games. You see even old iron pants Slackware has gotten so good a rank amateur can use it imagine how good those easy distro's must be. I think I will post anon as I do not wish to be hunted like an animal by irate Windows users. You know I thought XP was pretty decent for MS WTF happened to them.

I've been supporting Vista as a tech support engineer since May getting 8-10 calls a day for Vista issues. Here are some Gotchas that will help you avoid the more serious issues. By the way, I've been supporting MS Products, and I do not work for them, since 1953 and Vista is the cleanest release I have seen for MS

Gotchas

1. Do not under any circumstances update from XP or any other operating system to Vista. Do it and you are damned forever. A clean install is the only way to go.

2. Do not under any circumstances have Macafee running on Vista unless you want BSODs, system hangs, no internet, MS mail not responding, complete OD wipeouts and other serious consequences.

3. Do not under any circumstances try to run any version of Vista with under 2gb memory. You'll get slower and slower until you grind to a halt.

4. Forget Inet Exp ver. 7. Download Firefox.

I do use XP for business but that is not the issues I want answered.

I run XP at home to more or less do two things, surf the web (and view stuff) and to play games.

MS forced me to upgrade to XP because of Direct X, as my new games will not play on XP. Now I am willing to accept the leap from 9x to XP because for the most part 9x was a bodged pile of horse poo. Now I remember well the issues I had going to XP, and happly there was not to many, mostly because M$ put a lot of effort into backwards compatible drivers and a DL you could run to 'test your compatibility'.

However, Vista brings me lots of things I do not want nor need. One of the things I do need as anybody who wants to play games knows is an up to date copy of DX. This will force me to upgrade. Now you could say its not MS forcing me but the hardware industry and the games industry, but I would say NO. Why?, because what is it that makes the new versions of DX not work in XP?, and more to the point should'nt XP have a support life expectancy? hu?

I would also like to point out at this point that if MS's plan to get every game creator (for PC's) to use DX to prevent people like me for playing using linux or mac's, then well done. I would love nothing more than to kick MS and most of there apps into touch and have a choice of OS's to play my games on top of. Anybody remember Open-GL and Quake-GL. Ahh the good old days before MS killed it. (and don't be pedantic about my choice of words, nor my meaning).

My complaint is MS kill off my choices awhile ago and now I am 'forced' to upgrade. As it happens I am quite happy with XP, more so than 9x or dos 3.3

(I do not think other products are perfect but I would at least like to choose the non-perfect product I use.)

-MonkeyNutts.

Yeah, quite right. It runs fine. It runs just like my old P-II 350.

Like a dog, in other words.

Bloated, DRM-ridden crap!

"I've been supporting MS Products, and I do not work for them, since 1953 and Vista is the cleanest release I have seen for MS"

REALLY??? Was M$ going that long before Wm Gates III was born, then? I'm amazed!

"cleanest release"? You have to be joking! How old are you? 10?

The nearest M$ got to a decent operating system was Win2k. My local supermarket is still running it. The navy is still running it [ed, can you put the Windoze for warships link in here?]

If it doesn't work you send it back and either get a refund or a replacement that does the job. Straight forward and simple. If Vista doesn't meet the consumer needs then in the interests of client satisfaction I would have thought a reasonable offer would be a copy of XP. My father had a Dell machine that was pre-installed with Win '98 and a DVD ROM drive that was a bit dodgy when playing DVDs. After numerous hardware rebuilds by Dell they finally succumbed and coughed up for a copy of Win 2K, which solved the problem. It was advertised as being able to play DVDs and couldn't, so the option was a fix or the money back, thanks Mr. Dell. Sadly it needed some heavy duty conversations to get Dell to come to the party.

I hope the Dutch bloke gets XP or his money back.

...has made it far too easy for companies to release any old crap then get users to check for updates to fix the problems which should have been fixed before release.

"Many problems seem to occur on older systems or with older peripherals"

And should that not invalidate MS's claim about new devices ...

anyway in 5 years when we have the first SP or two maybe they will get me to try Vista else I'm not in a hurry

"What's the difference between a rabbit that's been pulled out of a hat and Windows Vista?

By Anonymous Coward

Posted Sunday 14th October 2007 17:01 GMT

Joke Alert

One is the product of a cunning stunt."

And in the Steganographic Stealth of that alert Joke lies the Key to the Magic Kingdom?

A Vista Driver of Immaculate Grace, Anonymous Coward?

Is it possible that Vista is not an evolutionary but a revolutionary OS Boldly Going and requiring ITs Drivers/third-party software suppliers to also make a Quantum Leap into Virtual Space territory? A question which only its Creators can answer definitively?

It is then hereby asked.

That surely must raise the possibility/present the reality to Microsoft [any Business Intelligence], that should it not be so/should it not have been so, so it now is because it has been articulated/visualised/Virtualised. And should Microsoft not see and/or accept such as would be the Reality, it would leave them vulnerable to Take Over and/or Management Buy Out .

I trust that makes Word Perfect Sense ....[to VirtualMachines (42 Create VirtualMachines2)]

Parse that, BG, for a whole NeuReal Great Game XXXXPerience. [Interesting Initials, by the way, BG, considering the Content of this thread, AIReSearch on a Global String. :-)]

This weekend I helped out my sister with her new laptop, it came with Vista and the supplier didn't supply driver disks so I had to keep it that way. I clicked on the vista gadgets, got the CPU display (looks like car speedo's) and 41% of the 2Gb of RAM was used just to look at the desktop.

That for me is enough to worry that all those Pc's running 1GB as a good deal for Vista must be horrendous to use.

@Mike,

I bought my Vista from a reputable supplier on a machine they built for me. The only game I played was halo2 and both Vista and Halo2 (An MS built for vista game) crash, unplayable. Doing everything you say still doesn't have Nvidia with a good release of drivers, or games designers with a reliable and stable release. Kind of leaves your argument dead in the water.

@The other Steve

I have 10 years Experience in IT and I hate Vista for the problems and incompatibilites it evidently has. Don't include me in your definition. They are forcing an upgrade because of the minimum specs required, and my dual Nvidia 9750 GT GFX cards you would have expected to be supported as they are the largest GFX suppliers. But nope, not with Vista and not for the first six months after release.

I think the Dutch are going about this all wrong. Why are they trying to get Microsoft to supply XP? They should be encouraging users to simply not buy Microsoft products if they are not happy with the products Microsoft offer. That's the way the market works in all other areas except operating systems Those buying new machines can buy Apple, those who insist on using PCs or who are upgrading old PCs can run Linux. I don't know why the Dutch aren't pursuing these options. If they did that, maybe Microsoft might take a bit more notice too.

The 4004 was released in 16-pin CERDIP packaging on November 15, 1971

'Nuff said. (Okay, from wiki' but Intel will tell you the same). IC's aren't much older.

I use gentoo, not the easiest to get around unless you know what you're doing. Easy to learn though.

Debian, that bit more simple.

Ubuntu, a doddle to install.

Can't stand Suse or Redhat, both have very nearly put me off using it.

Don't mind winXP

Modern *nixs will run on old hardware, you just need to cut out the 'bloatware' like openoffice (no offence to the team, I use it quite happily). ie up-to-date kernel and light apps work fine. Try Debian.

My mate had a vista ready PC according to the MS tool. Gave up trying to install it because MS lied. Is the tool any more accurate these days? Or are people still told the software should install fine.

Either way, the consumer has a right to money back if the product does not work as it was sold to. So if the machines should be able to run the product, then money back if not perfect. Not quite the complaint, but that comes down to monopolies.

I baught a new laptop that came with Vista and i have had to revert back to XP. This was due to HP not supporting duplex printing on Vista (works fine on XP!) and Norton's Internet Security 2007 being stopping access to trusted web sites in a completely unpredictable fashion (it works under XP!).

While Vista has some issues I'm surprised people arn't screaming for a public sacrifice from HP. The issue with the printers was known in March and they are not planning on fixing it. Allowing people to print on two sides and save paper is not a high priority for them.

I tried (I really, really, did try) to talk to Symantec about the issues with Internet Security 2007. Beyond advising me to reinstall the product (which i did - lots of times) they had nothing to say. No error messages were written to the log files. Access was not denied to the web site - a university web mail over SSL - but the browser would not be able to find it. Turn off Internet Security and it all works.

So before you knock Vista have a look at the performance of the third parties. They are as much to blame as Microsoft.

..blame the company who made them and couldn't be bothered working on drivers till the last minute (nvidia anyone?).

As for not doing an upgrade over the top of XP - I'v ebeen running Vista Business since January 2007 and it was done as an upgrade on top of my XP install, it actually solved several issues that XP was having (it didn't like multiple RAID cards and slowed all disk i/o massively). The only problem I've had with BSODs has been with Nvidia Vista drivers and that seems to be solved now.

To 'The other Steve', and others like him:

What do you mean by if I have problems with Vista my hardware is (probably) not supported? Come on, you must be joking. According to every MS fanboy the Microsoft operating system supports more hardware out of the box than Linux does (despite evidence to the contrary). Even Microsoft say this! Are you telling me this is not true?

And it is not tough shit if it doesn't work! It is expected to work. If certain hardware is not supported then why is it not mentioned on the box?

At the end of the day you are just making excuses for MS's poor product. So what if you have not had problems. Whoopy-do. Lots of other people have had problems so should we ignore them all because you haven't. IT'S OKAY EVERYBODY, STEVE HASN'T HAD PROBLEMS WHICH MEANS WE CAN IGNORE YOU. ONLY STEVE MATTERS.

And yes, I regard you as a shill. Why? Because you feel the need to justify your comments by pointing out that you have 3 VM based nix installs near you but still feel the need to put the foot in by stating that they are running via MS products!

@Peter

"It's not up to Microsoft to tell people when to upgrade their computers, and it's certainly not up to Microsoft to FORCE people to upgrade their computers. Honestly, so long as the hardware lasts, a modern office could easily survive and thrive day-to-day ops on early 90s hardware AND software, Blackberries not withstanding.

It's a huge racket. Let's release a new office suite every 2 years that really doesn't offer ANYTHING new over the previous release, certainly not enough to justify a full point release, but let's get it bundle with new computers so people into "old office trying to open new office document" problems as often as possible, and maybe they'll run out and drop $400 on the new copy."

I agree, you should not be forced to upgrade. However, I don't agree that you are forced in any way at all to upgrade your existing machines or their software.

You can choose to run the latest versions, or choose not to. You might want some recent features (or like the other poster above, want to choose to run certain games). I might want a car which drives faster, or more efficiently, or greener, or has more seats, but I am not forced to do so by the car manufacturer and it would be ridiculous of me to ask them to give me some kind of free upgrade. If I bought a new sports car and then found it was not compatible with my rusty old roof rack, did not fit my child seat in and would not go over 100 mph in our suburban sidestreet, could I expect them to refund me? Give me a free downgrade to a different vehicle?

As for Office, there is a free download available for Office 2000 or 2003 which will enable those versions to natively open files in the new format. There are also free viewers available to make sure you are not even forced to have office on the first place. If you have some new machines with new versions of software you can of course choose to save into older formats (and centrally impose this choice on your users if you wish) or to a neutral read-only format such as PDF.

If you are buying business versions of Vista through OEM channels you have (at the moment) the right to downgrade to XP by installing from legitimate media and going through the activiation process over the phone, giving them your Vista key so they can give you an activation code. For Office, you can downgrade from retail, open volume or select licences (but not from OEM) to a previous version.

I have had no problem with drivers etc on my Dell-supplied laptop (upgraded from XP to Vista myself using downloaded drivers, not a prebuild). No problem with my printer, scanner, tons of third-party software etc. It is sometimes a bit slow and I swear at it and threaten to downgrade, but there are some really good features which make me stick with it for now (the offline files engine for example is miles better than the XP one - it just works, does not get in my way, and does not take an age at shutdown to check that it is in synch). I have not upgraded my Vaio to Vista or Office 2007 - because I choose not to.

I had a Dell machine supplied to me by icrosoft and the OS installed by Microsoft.

First thing it couldn't do was recognise the built in wireless network card.

Checked the card with a livedisk of Ubuntu it worked, so I managed to get Vista drivers and success.

After a few months I gave in and switched off UAC. It doesn't just annoy, it stops programmes that I have commanded to work from working. No matter the admin privileges I have given it.

My wife uses it to play Lord of the Rings Online. Occasionally it won't accept inputs. Eventually when I get back into Windows mode we find some unimportant alert has sprung into action and is monopolising the hardware interrupts so that the mouse or the ESC key isn't being recognised.

Works fine on my XP Rock laptop.

One thing they got right, the search is a damn sight faster, bu the annoyances do indeed bug the bejasus out of me.

Saucerhead Tharpe

Look at this from another viewpoint. If I have a 3 year old custom PC with a shed load of accessories like scanners, digital cameras, wi-fi adaptors and media converter cards in my machine - I wouldn't blame Ubuntu for not supporting the drivers.

If manufacturers can't be arsed to produce new drivers for the worlds most popular operating system then how on earth can we blame MS for it?

We've modified our code and tested throughly with the betas of Vista that came out. 3 days after the business (November) launch our application was Vista certified.

As a SME development house we don't have the resources that other larger companies (creative, netgear, HP, belkin, nVidia etc.) have - yet our software was ready to rock straight away when Vista was released.

This is just a case of shitty customer service from the hardware manfacturers and ignorance on the consumers side for not bothering to check that their drivers work with Vista. MS not only have pages and pages of compatability lists, but even produce a software app that will check your installed software and tell you if it won't work with VIsta.

@Alistair Millington

The RAM thing is a myth. My 512Mb box has Vista ultimate and uses around 40% of that. The memory handling in Vista is much improved compared to XP - thus the system tries to put as much into RAM than than off the pagefile. If you load up Photoshop and get low on RAM then Vista will release parts of the OS that is using it and allocate it to Photoshop.instead.

Also, you don't need anything more than a bog standard Intel integrated graphics card to run Vista. You want Aero then yeah you do - but if you just want the new UI without the glass effects then any old graphics board will run it. If your nVidia graphics card doesn't run with Vista then I suggest bitching to nVidia as to why after nearly a year after release they still haven't written the drivers for the OS.

...is that you Bill? Or is it Steve?

The "I hate Microsoft" zealots need to really stop and think how silly they sound, and the "Linux never has any problems" crowd are sadly deluded.

I have Vista HP 64bit installed on my media centre, it has not blue-screened or crashed once in several months, I sleep and resume a lot, it's stable and it looks much better than XP. Yes it uses more RAM, but at <£25 per GB for DDR2 - am I bovvered? The only issues have been poor Creative driver support for my X-Fi (they work at a basic level but the applications are not Vista compatible), everything else has been fine, Nokia software, Bluetooth, TV Card, Intel chipset etc all had drivers and installed fine and are working a charm.

I have seen several other Vista machines and they have similarly worked fine, including the installation of *some* older software. But to be quite honest I don't expect all old software to always work on the newest OS, that'd be what new versions of software are for - to support the new OS and the new hardware etc etc. We all had these problems moving from DOS based 98/ME into 2000/XP - I remember everyone moaning like big girls about their old games not working.

If you're software is not Vista compatible then DON'T BUY VISTA - it's that easy!!! You're not forced to buy Vista at all, most companies will have a XP volume disk around, and I bet most of you private users have a cracked copy of XP. It's still available in retail if you are building a new PC... If you have legacy software, or old hardware, then stick to running the OS on which it was designed to run. I see so many people saying "I upgraded to Vista and now everything doesn't work" - did you even bother to check if it would before you started? It is OEM hardware manufacturers who choose to supply Vista not XP on packaged PCs, they have the option to provide XP (as some do, i.e. Dell if you buy from the business section), but most consumers are not educated and just want whatever the marketing men have told them is best between part 2 and 3 of X-Factor on Saturday night - which at the moment is Vista.

Now onto Linux, yes it's a fantastic piece of software considering it is free, but it is not without it's own issues... firstly the latest distros when installed in FULL (including window manager) are often as memory hogging as Windows, and won't run on older hardware either. Linux also has many quirks, and plenty of forums with people saying "package X doesn't work now I upgraded my kernel/libc/xxx" etc etc - there are all the same upgrade issues as Vista and "this won't work if you don't have kernel version X or better" problems.

(Incidentally before you dismiss me as a n00b, yes you, I know you are doing it now, then I run Linux on about 10 servers, Debian, Redhat based and more, an office full of XP workstations, Vista at home along with more Debian and XP, and some other Linux's for firewalls, have worked supporting OS-X etc as well.)

Bottom line: don't just expect old hardware to run new software, don't expect old software to run on your new OS - and don't blame the OS maker, blame the makers of the driverless hardware or unpatched software. Microsoft and Linux distributers provide an OS - it is up to YOU to make sure it suits your needs and works with your existing software and hardware. They aren't your carer, and if you don't have the personal expertise then that is what your local PC expert is paid for... again not MS fault you don't have the expertise.

If you buy a PC from a manufacturer pre-installed and it doesn't work then it is their fault for not doing decent quality control, it is not the OS provider's fault that people cannot implement their product properly.

Vista does work, it has its problems (but so does any OS, especially one so new) but it does work... Linux also does work, and again has many problems... Problems are fixed with driver upgrades, software upgrades and expertise to do them properly, if you lack the fix then don't just blanket blame the OS provider for what is likely a 3rd party created problem.

Given that Billy Gates was born Oct 28 1955, who was running the company before he was born?!

Can't believe amanfrommars has his own icon!

"Many problems seem to occur on older systems or with older peripherals." Oh, you mean like every enterprise environment that I've ever worked in. God (or whatever) help us if Vista becomes the only thing available for the users I support. Keeping data-acquisition hardware and older lab equipment running on XP is hard enough for some of the stuff we have. It's not like my company is going to spend 10s-100s of thousands to upgrade controllers or software for electron microscopes, X-ray machines, data buckets and the like, just for the ill-perceived benefits of Vista. I hope the day when we have no choice is a long, long way off.

Virtual PC is not really an M$ product. Was developed by Conectix for misguided Apple users to put bloat on the mac. M$ only acquired it for another revenue stream with all the dev work having been done. As soon as they do start 'work' on it, god help anyone who wants to use it. Me not included

from my own experience vista is crap.. i was really looking forward to it but was so disapointed..

first the slow response when copying network files or doing anything else network related and this was on a macbook pro with proper vista drivers, but the same problem on my father inlaws dell which i decided to buy as an XP build but decieded to give vista another chance and wish i hadnt bothered as i had no end of driver issues (and this is a brand new dell which is vista ready apparently) so went back to XP and low behold everything works perfect first time.

people go on about apple fanboys but on this vista subject i cant believe how many ms fanboys are out their and blinkered by pretty graphics but the useless implementation of legacy hardware/software support

im running server 2008 which looks like vista but seems to not have any of the problems vista has with slow networking so maybe the vista programmers want to have a work with the 2008 ones and find out what theyve done wrong.

p.s whats the paris hilton angle on this story??

p.p.s buy a mac and run XP via parallels its all so much better then

Wow, foam at the mouth much ?

w/r/t hardware issues, there is, in fact, such a thing as the Vista Hardware Compatibility List. Google is your friend.

Before updating your OS, it is your own responsibility to check that your hardware is on this list. Expecting a brand new MS product to work out of the box with your old stuff is just plain stupid. This has never been the case before, so why should it be now ? It isn't in the interests of any of the concerned parties, MS or the hardware or software manufacturers, because they want to sell you more stuff.

Deal with this, it's called "business". It might not be very good for consumers, but hey, if you don't like feeling the jackboot of untrammelled capitalism on your neck, vote for a socialist political party, if you can find one.

As for the MS shill slur that you just couldn't resist, monkey boy, I mention those facts because I'm happy with my WIndows systems, and I'm happy with my linux systems. Both run fine, both work together, in a friendly mixed environment. And because I knew that some sad linux fanboi would blow a gasket. Well done.

Seriously, you lot need to grow the fuck up and stop whining, these same issues occur with every release of windows and if you haven't figured out how to deal with it simply move away from windows and use one of the alternatives.

@Others w/r/t DX10 and Office upgrades.

If you are a gamer, you should be used to spending your dosh on cutting edge upgrades to play the latest stuff. If you don;t like it, find something else to do, or buy a console.

Office wise, I fully agree that the new versions don't offer much. In fact as far as I can see the only worthwhile addition to word since version 2.0 is in-line spell checking. So don't buy the new ones. Duh! Or, shock horror! Use an alternative.

You still have plenty of choices, and throwing your dummies out of your pram every time you think MS has taken some away is just a symptom of the fact that you are totally dependant on Redmond.

MS don't have to treat you nice, and you don't have to buy their stuff. Deal.

Face up to the fact that you are the M in your S&M relationship with Redmond and get some counselling or something.

How about this?

Zip up my documents on Sempron WinXP = 1 or 2 minutes

Transfer to stick drive

Transfer from stick to new Core Duo Vista computer

Unzip on Vista = over an HOUR.

I'm talking about a lightweight my documents, as you can see from the XP time. I think it was something like a dozen Mb.

I'm sure the poster above is right. Each file was transmitted to the RIAA and/or others for checking before being allowed to be written onto the HD.

I used a machine with all Vista spec capable hardware,

newly purchased kit for all except the ATA HDD of 40GB,

blank slate to vista, installation was quick and easy, the eyecandy was perfectly sleazy,

installation of device drivers that werent "just there" was a breeze, but where was the

sound of the sneeze?... missing audio what tot? the device driver already had bit-rot!

updating to working drivers started the crawl, into the swamp I had to fall, the OS

with the beach front view didnt say it was looking at a toxic waste swamp.

I am one user who has donned the ski mask and cold climate kit and made off to live

with the penguins and the only use of "Microsoft Tax" is to keep an old copy of XP

to live in the sandbox beside the virtualbox sun-lamp with the beach bucket and spade

Microsoft has to come to terms with being very far behind Linux and having some serious catch-up to do. The lack of hardware support and the bad clone of Beryl and Compiz just doesn't cut it with average users. Users want their hardware to work and want the same software and glitz that is common on advanced Linux desktop systems.

Microsoft has tens of thousands of developers and the best they can manage is a poor Linux clone. Windows is hard to install, slow as molasses, has a clunky interface and lacks the features that Linux had years ago already. This is simply shocking, terribly shocking...

Just to inform you all, we purchased three new sony laptops, spent about £7000GBP, all came with Vista preloaded, vista is incompatible with our server and set up so we had to BUY 3 Windows XP Pro discs, alas it wasnt as simple as loading and up and away, three weeks on, 17 phone calls to sony tech and still no wireless access -

Vista sucks big time, its like everything revolutionary though, give it a few years and it will be the op system of choice but right now, i wouldnt want it to run me a bath !

"..I bill by the hour. We would all be out of jobs if everything worked right out of the box..."

You can't be getting much business. I looked up "Anonymous Coward" in the phone book and you weren't listed.

The 1953 was a typo and should have been 1993. Prior to that it was all UNIX and for NASA at Kennedy Space Center. So I was around before MS. Guess my age and I'll sit on your face so that you may guess my weight as well..

One of our boxes got struck by lightning so we had to enter the new hardware fray. New (cheap & fast) business desktops are Vista preinstalled with maybe no XP drivers available anywhere. Things have gotten real ugly..

I cannot believe that there are no websites out there that give new hardware boxes that have XP drivers available. Take the Compaq Presario SRS5250NX in this weeks Staples advert for US$540 (before their @#$%& "easy rebates"). I should be able to plug "SRS5250NX" into a javascript and know if my XP will have video/audio/network. I did find one outfit that will make a new XP box (www.jncs.com) but there have to be hundreds. Anyone know?

I've been spending a lot of time with old laptops recently, setting them up for classroom use. They're tiny by modern standards -- 700P3,128MByte,10Gig -- and they mostly run 2KSP4 (plus a handful of XPPro). They work just fine.

Microsoft seems to have got everyone thinking that an operating system is one giant piece of software. It isn't. Every programmer knows that software is built from components, its the only way to manage a complex project. (That's maybe one reason why MSFT has problems with Vista -- its never been able to design its APIs to minimize the interactions between components and its (mis)use of object methodology just adds fuel to the fire.) Its not a new problem, even back in the MS-DOS days MSFT's home-built stuff like Word used to run like a dog unless you had the latest and greatest. Anyway, unless these guys can figure out their resource management and fix their component interfaces they're just going to continue to have problems -- you can't just keep bleating "Moore's Law" and expect the punters to be forever shelling out for new kit, you have to offer them something (and as far as I can see there's not much reason for using Vista compared to 2K or XP unless you desperately need to use your PC as an undersized television set).

Vista has got problems. Anything that's that big that does that little has problems.

For the doubters, Linux is made from components. You'd be surprised how small you can make a distribution.....you don't normally see this because its mostly the province of the embedded crowd.

Sorry, but for those who are saying that people should check the hardware compatibility list, etc. -- ridiculous. Now, true, every new version of Windows loses some hardware that was compatible with the previous one. However, the extent of the loss with Vista is simply ridiculous -- and the inability of even getting drivers for hardware that is not on the DVD is further ridiculous.

I should point out, Linux has basically gained hardware support with every release with almost no loss of older hardware support. The Ubuntu 7.04 LiveCD will fire up on almost anything off the bat (as long as it's got at least ~192MB of RAM), sound, video, etc. all working. I haven't had wireless work in every case, but, it doesn't with Windows either -- it was just a matter of plugging in ethernet and it'd pull drivers for the wireless device.

"The 1953 was a typo and should have been 1993. Prior to that it was all UNIX and for NASA at Kennedy Space Center. So I was around before MS. Guess my age and I'll sit on your face so that you may guess my weight as well.."

Prior to 1993, neither I nor any of my computer buddies were using *nix and we didn't work for NASA. For the ten years before 1993 (since the IBM PCjr) most of us were, in fact, running MS. Both Commodore and Atari were also very popular. By 1986 there were plenty of businesses using computers without UNIX. It seems there is more than a typo problem here. You're probably too young or too old to remember. However, if you're interested, this information is easily available by using Google. I'll pass on guessing your weight!

The wacko drivers, the slow copying, and so on are all due to the insane Premium Content Protection in Vista, which is NOT there in anything earlier. This destructive garbage and the eye candy are all that's new in Vista, and none of it is worthwhile. Visit http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html for a good time.

On the desktop, go to XP or 2k, or get a Mac, or use Linux if you can get it to print properly with your printer (printing always was X's weak spot; it's improved rapidly in Linux but still isn't quite there for a lot of hardware).

There is absolutely no reason to use Vista. Ever. For anything. With any sort of luck, Vista will be M$' version of the PS/2, which was so bad (twenty years ago) that all by itself it completely blasted IBM out of the PC hardware business -- a market which it had dominated overwhelmingly since the PC was first introduced.